Today I’ve got an interview with the legendary Riyria author, Michael J Sullivan. You’re almost certainly familiar with him, but if not, you should be. I recommend starting with Theft of Swords. If you’re a fan of mine, I will literally bet you money that you’ll enjoy that book. Also, it’s where the man himself told me to start when I asked him a few years ago.
In addition to being the best-selling author that I know, Michael and his wife Robin, are amongst the most generous people I have ever met. There is no manual on how to achieve success in the publishing game, and when someone says there is, it’s because they’re a charlatan trying to sell you a course. Instead, we have something better, we have Michael and Robin. They are always open to sharing what they’ve learned in the industry, and for a legion of Indie authors, they are our insiders and can tell us how it REALLY works.
So, buckle up, and let’s get started.
AC: Hi Michael, thanks so much for taking the time to chat! First, for those unfamiliar with your work, can you tell us a little about your series Riyria Revelations, Riyria Chronicles, and Legends of the First Empire? What are they like, how are they related?
MJS: Hey, AC, thanks for having me. So, the first thing for people to know is that all my books exist in the same world (like Sanderson’s Cosmere universe). That said, they can be read independently of one another. In other words, you don’t need to know anything about Riyria to enjoy Legends and vice versa. But, for those who do read all the books, there will be little winks and nods for “people in the know.”
The Riyria Revelations start out as fun, fast-paced adventures with a cynical ex-assassin and an optimistic ex-mercenary who are framed for the murder of a king. But the story is built in layers, and by the time you are done, mysteries have thickened, treacheries are uncovered, and the stakes have become epic. The best thing about this series is its ending where all the puzzle pieces fall into place, and everything is, well, revealed.
The Riyria Chronicles goes back a few years and shows how Royce and Hadrian met and became a team with “a very particular set of skills.” Those books were written because so many people missed Team Riyria when Revelations was over. They provide more or less standalone adventures with characters that people connect with as if they were real-life friends. For people who are Riyria-curious. You could read The Death of Dulgath or The Disappearance of Winter’s Daughter without committing to the full six books of Revelations. Then, if you want more, you’ll have nine more books to dig into.
Legends of the First Empire is epic from its start and includes a large ensemble cast. This series allows me to explore a pivotal time 3,000 years before Riyria and starts in Elan's bronze age. It shows the true events surrounding the Great War when humans discovered that the race they thought were gods are just a long-lived and highly advanced race. For those who have read Riyria, you'll get the added benefit of seeing through the many lies I told about Elan's past. After all, history is written by the victors who can usurp the deeds of an unlikely group of misfits who were the true architects for building Elan's future.
AC: Your books remind me of the classic fantasy I grew up reading. Can you talk about what has inspired your writing?
MJS: It’s funny you would say that because my author tagline is “Unlikely Heroes, Classic Adventure.” I’m an old geezer, so I started with Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, and Ursula K. LeGuin. Back in those early days, we didn’t have the breadth of fantasy that is available now. The first book I wrote (when I was all of thirteen) was a sequel to The Lord of the Rings. I quickly realized how big a mistake that was, so I started writing my own tales. Years later, when I became more serious about writing, I tried all kinds of fiction: fantasy, sci-fi, thrillers, horror, coming-of-age, literary—just about everything except romance and westerns.
I wrote thirteen novels and got nowhere in publishing, so I quit entirely. More than a decade later, I picked up a copy of Harry Potter for my daughter. Reading it reminded me how fun it is to escape into a wondrous fantasy with great characters and that reignited my desire to write. So I returned to the keyboard, but only on the condition that I didn’t seek publication. Ironically, it was those books that became my debut.
AC: Introduced to us in Theft of Swords: The Riyria Revelations #1-2 <where I recommend readers start with MJS, if you haven’t already –AC>, Royce and Hadrian are a great pair, and if I had to guess, they are your most popular characters. Literal partners in crime! They’re perfect anti-heroes. What about them is so compelling for readers, do you think?
MJS: Being first, they certainly have a strong following. Still, several characters in Legends of the First Empire are giving the pair a run for their money. When I started writing them, I didn’t fully realize how much I enjoy duos. Looking back, some of my favorite forms of entertainment revolve around a pair of friends. Some examples include Sam and Frodo, Butch and Sundance (from the Robert Redford and Paul Newman movie), Sam and Al (from Quantum Leap), and Kelly Robinson and Alex Scott (from I Spy). It’s those unbreakable bonds of friendship that I find so compelling, and I’m thrilled to have added another pair of favorites to my list.
But I think what really makes them click is playing off their differences, especially because it presents the opportunity to inject humor. Fantasy, especially these days, can be pretty dire, so I love lightening the mood of Riyria with their witty banter. A great deal of what makes Riyria work is the chemistry between the two. A good test to see if Riyria is right for you is to read the first six pages of Theft of Swords (which you can access here). It encapsulates their dynamic perfectly, and if you like it, you’ll surely enjoy the full novels.
AC: You weren’t always a writer! What were you doing before you could write as a career, and what led to you to this business?
MJS: Did I mention I'm an old geezer? I should have an extensive work history, but the truth is I've only "worked" six years out of sixty. In high school, I was a dishwasher, and after that, I worked in manufacturing. In my early twenties, I was a graphic designer. For most of my adult life, I was a stay-at-home dad (very unusual in the 1980s). Doing that allowed me to write while the kids were taking naps or at school.
Once the kids grew up, I worked in advertising and eventually started my own agency. That helped build my confidence that I wasn't entirely without worth. But the thrill was in the building, and once it got to the humming-right-along stage, I lost interest. This depressed me because I felt adrift. That's when the Harry Potter book showed up and scratched my writing itch. When I told my wife I wanted to write again—but not publish (as that way led to the dark side), she said, "Hey, whatever makes you happy, I'm on board with." We went back to living on a single income (which we had done for most of our marriage). It's not as bad as it sounds. Robin has always enjoyed "working for the man," and she is much smarter than I and earned a much higher salary.
AC: Before long in any professional writer’s group you’ll hear the phrase, “there are many paths up the mountain”, meaning there is more than one way to get published. In your career, you’ve trod almost all of those paths. Can you talk some about your journey?
MJS: Haha, you are right about that! I’ve pretty much done it all, but I’ll try to be brief. So, I started out riding the query-go-round in the 1980s and early 1990s. I wrote thirteen novels and submitted most of them to agents. None of them found any traction. As I mentioned, I stopped writing after that and when I returned (more than a decade later) it was only on the condition that I wouldn’t seek publication. After reading the first three Riyria tales, Robin made it her mission to “get the books out there.”
She hopped on the query-go-round and did land someone. But after all the agent’s attempts went nowhere, she suggested trying small presses (which would take unsolicited submissions). Robin submitted queries to six companies that specialized in fantasy and science fiction, but she didn’t get any responses. Still undaunted, she started investigating self-publishing (which was before kindles even existed), and she learned a lot. She was about to go that route when a small press in Minnesota offered to publish.
That publisher was well-intentioned, but not the best when it came to managing a business. There was no advance, and we never earned a dime of royalties (even though the book sold out its print run). When they didn’t have the cash to print the second book, we had the rights reverted and switched to self-publishing. Sales started to improve with the third book’s release, and by the time the fifth book came out in 2010, we were doing well enough for Robin to quit her day job.
Around this time, Robin thought it was worth “checking in” with New York again. With the help of our foreign rights agent, we reached out to thirteen editors and had immediate interest from half of them. Orbit made what’s called a pre-emptive offer– which means an advance that is so big it attempts to lock in a book before a bidding war breaks out. Since they were our first choice, we went with them. To be honest, I only thought we would sign one contract and return to self-publishing. Still, we signed two more books to Orbit because we didn’t want to send the message of “Well, I couldn’t make it in traditional, and I was forced back to self-publishing."
One of the big disappointments with those first two contracts was the inability to retain audiobook rights (which were becoming an increasingly large portion of our income). So, for the Legends of the First Empire series, Robin sold the audio rights first. She also wanted to move me up to hardcovers, but Orbit thought I could only sell well in paperback. So we split from them. By then, I had another agent who convinced us to "shop" Legends around, and Del Rey came in with an offer we couldn't refuse. Lack of audio rights wasn't a deal-breaker when we signed that contract, but when it came time to negotiate for the second half of the series, the industry had changed. Now, ebook, print, and audio rights are required for all big-five publishers. So that made it impossible to partner with them for the remaining books.
Now we are back to our indie roots, but we do "self-publishing on steroids." We still have bookstore distribution because we do large press runs that involve warehousing and distribution partners. We also sell a lot of books directly to consumers (through our website and Kickstarters). We've always believed that the only two essential people in the chain are the reader and the writer, which means we keep a much bigger part of the pie than some of the other distribution venues. We'll continue to keep our pulse on the industry, and pivot as needed. After all, the landscape of 2008 (when we started) is much different than in 2020.
AC: Kickstarter has been a great outlet for you to avoid the middlemen and connect with fans. I haven’t done one myself, but I’ve been blown away with what you’ve accomplished on the platform, and of course Brandon Sanderson just weeks ago raised the bar even higher. Can you tell us what you like about using KS, and why it’s such a great platform for fans as well?
MJS: Sure. As you know, I'm an evangelist when it comes to authors using Kickstarters. Everything about the experience has been so enjoyable for us. Before I answer your question, let me tell you how we got started with crowd-funding.
We have a traditionally published friend who wrote a series that their agent couldn't place with a publisher, and it went into the trunk, never to be seen again. I told them to self-publish, but he explained he didn't have the financial resources for the cover design and editing. I suggested running a Kickstarter to raise those funds (after all, he already had a following), but he said, "I don't think that would work."
Well, as you can see by now, you never tell Robin that something isn't possible, so we ran our first Kickstarter to prove him wrong. At the time, our friend and I had a similarly sized audience. We thought it would do well, but the Kickstarter exceeded our expectations in ways we never expected.
The backers get so excited by helping to make the book a reality that their enthusiasm becomes infectious. Plus, because they get the books before the retail release, we have thousands of early readers generating pre-release buzz. Kickstarters are also a more "intimate" experience than buying from a faceless corporate giant. I feel a closer connection with my readers through Kickstarters, and I think they feel it, too. Plus, we can reward backers with perks that aren't possible when purchasing from a store -- bonus short stories, behind the scenes videos, signed books, matching bookmarks, and much more.
One of the big surprises was how many new readers we found. At first, we thought that 90% of the backers would be existing readers. But we found that 70% were people who had never read any of my books before! Kickstarter has a robust community of shoppers continually on the prowl for exciting projects, and we seem to find more of them with each Kickstarter we run.
Lastly, but not wholly unimportant, is the higher amount of the reader's money that stays with us. Instead of earning $2.80 per hardcover, we make $22.50 (and the reader pays the same or less for the book). Readers want writers to succeed, and if buying direct means more money to the one who wrote the story, that's a win-win!
AC: You have a close collaborator with your wife Robin. Can you talk some about how you work together, both creatively and operationally?
MJS: Well, I’ve already talked about her quite a bit. But I’m always happy to sing her praises, especially given none of my success would have happened without her. You already know a lot from the other answers, but that’s not even half of it.
At the big-picture level, Robin deals with anything that has to do with the “business side” of writing. This frees me up to concentrate on the “creative side.” She handles all the contacts and coordinates with the publishers, agents, fulfillment houses, distribution partners, copyeditors, cover designers, printers, and publicists. Oh, and she also sets up and administrates the Kickstarters. Basically, she keeps me away from middlemen and administrative tasks so I can focus on writing.
But she also has a part to play regarding the books themselves. When I write a story, I do so in complete isolation. I don’t want other people to see the work until I’m 100% pleased with it. She is the first person to read the book, and her next job is to tear it apart. I’m not sure if your readers are old enough to remember the BASF commercial, but they had a promotion that said, “We don’t make the products you buy, we make the products you buy better.” That’s Robin’s mantra.
She goes through the story and points out problems: things that were confusing, times when there is something in my head that didn’t make it onto the page, lack of character motivation, plot holes, and issues with pacing. If you can name a “type of writing problem,” she’s an expert at spotting it. Seriously, I’d put her skills against any structural editor in the business. And because we’ve been together for over forty years (and I know she loves me and respects my work), we can have what would otherwise be difficult conversations in a constructive way. Yes, we sometimes disagree, and she’ll back down because it’s ultimately my book, but more often than not, the book changes (and is improved) by her feedback.
But her work doesn’t stop there. She also runs my beta reader program – and it’s very comprehensive. You can’t just say, “Hey, it was great!” or “Ugh, it sucked.” Robin used to be an engineer, and she loves data. So there are ratings for each chapter on four different metrics and questions to be answered. She digs into things such as what people liked, what they didn’t enjoy, were they confused by anything, what do they think will happen next, and was there something that didn’t happen that you wanted to. She even has a Goodreads group where beta readers can discuss the book and ask questions or suggest changes. As you might imagine, this produces a great deal of data, which she distills for me so I can quickly make any required changes.
And it doesn’t stop there. Robin will go over the post-beta copy and apply an additional layer of polish in the form of line editing. She’ll fix up awkward sentences, eliminate duplicated words, and fix anything that seems clunky. After twelve years of editing my work, she truly understands my voice and does a good job mimicking my style. When I re-read the book after her changes, I can’t tell what is hers and what is mine. There have even been times when I find a sentence that isn’t as good as it should be, only to discover she didn’t touch it. Doh!
But it doesn’t stop there. Next, Robin sends the books to the copyeditors (we use two), and she goes through the thousands of accept/reject changes and makes the decision on 95% of them. She leaves the ones requiring rewriting or areas where she is unclear which way I would choose to make the correction. Again, this keeps me concentrated on writing new stories.
But it doesn’t stop there (do you see a trend?). Once the words are locked, there is still a lot to do, and Robin does it. There are ebooks to create, layout for the physical books, printer proofs to be reviewed, arranging to ship to the warehouses, uploading the ebooks, and the list goes on and on.
I think my fans owe Robin a huge thank you. Not only do they get more books by freeing me up to write, but she also makes the books much, much better than they would be if she weren’t around. Oh, and then there is that little fact that the books never would have been published in the first place if it hadn’t been for her.
AC: My readers may not know this about you, Michael, but you and Robin are the most generous people in this industry that I’ve met! You share your time, your advice, and even your home! As someone who’s mentored dozens of fantasy authors (including this one), what is your best advice for someone who’s finishing up that first manuscript and is figuring out how to get it into the world?
MJS: You are very kind. Robin and I were clueless when we started in this whole crazy world of publishing. We’ve learned a lot in the last twelve years because we are always on the cutting edge of various publishing changes (self-publishing, hybrid authorship, ebooks, audiobooks, selling direct to consumers). It seems like a waste for all those hard-learned lessons to benefit only us. So, we do what we can to help others and make their path just a little bit easier.
I have a lot of advice – more than could fit in this interview, but I’ll limit myself to the essentials. First, it all starts with the book. You’ll never do well unless you can write a story that people enjoy so much that they (a) recommend it to others and (b) buy every book you release. If you don’t have that, no amount of marketing can help. Success is all about delighting the reader.
Second, if you decide to self-publish, you must be a professional self-published author. What I mean by that is you have to produce books that are every bit as good (and frequently better) than those produced by the traditionally published houses. This means professional covers, impeccable editing, compelling marketing copy, and, oh yes, a story that people will tell others to read. You, AC, definitely fit squarely into this category, which is one reason you are so successful.
Third, you have to get the books into the hands of a core group of readers (a way of priming the pump to use an analogy). We did that through sweat equity. In the early days, we literally sold the books one at a time by connecting with people on Goodreads and Reddit. These days, many authors use Facebook and Amazon ads (which is quicker but can be cost-prohibitive for those just starting out). But don’t forget the first point about writing a good book. My “system” relies on word-of-mouth to do the bulk of the truly heavy lifting.
The last piece is simple, just rinse and repeat. Few authors can earn well with only one or two books, but I genuinely don’t think you need to write three to ten books a year (although some authors have made lucrative careers doing precisely that). The important thing is to respectful to the readers and don’t make them wait too long. If you keep your quality high and the books coming regularly, life as a writer gets much easier!
AC: Last but not least, plug time! Tell us what’s next from Michael J. Sullivan?
MJS: Thanks again AC for having me. Well, the last book of the Legends of the First Empire hit the retail chain a few months ago. So, for those who won’t start a series until all the books are released, go binge read now! I think it’s my strongest work yet, and I’m thrilled that two of the books hit the New York Times bestseller’s list and three of them made the USA Today’s list.
I’m currently writing the third and last book of my new trilogy—the Rise and Fall. The first book (Nolyn) will hit the retail chain on August 3rd, 2021, and the Kickstarter will launch in January or February. Those that pre-order through the Kickstarter will receive the story in April (at least three months before the rest of the world). The second book (Farilane) is slated for August 2022. The book I’m writing now (Esrahaddon) should be finished by the end of the year, and the plan is to have it out in August of 2023). Since Nolyn is the next book to release, I’ll leave you with the back of the book description, which is the fastest way to learn what it is about.
“After two hundred years of service, the heir to the empire is suspicious about his reassignment to active duty on the front lines of the Goblin War. His first assignment to rescue an outpost leads to a dead-end canyon deep inside enemy territory. Suspicion turns to dread and then sinks to despair when it’s discovered no such outpost exists. But whoever went to the trouble of making his death look like an accident didn’t know anything about the Seventh Sikaria Auxiliary Squadron he was assigned to. In the depths of an unforgiving jungle, a legend is about to be born, and the world of Elan will never be the same.
A new adventure begins with the first book of the Rise and Fall trilogy. While set in the same world as Riyria and Legends of the First Empire, this is a standalone series, so no prior knowledge of the other books is required to enjoy it to its fullest.”
AC: And that’s all I’ve got for today. If you want to learn more about Michael and his worlds, you can visit him at: https://michaelsullivan-author.com. Hope you enjoyed our interview today, and happy reading!